If I want to find out about a school for a particular reason, the first thing I do is look for their web site. There’s very few schools opened in the last 5 years that don’t have a web site. That is, with the exception, of the 5 VEC schools in Ireland. If one searches for VEC primary schools on the Internet, you will find out the Catholic Church’s opinion, you’ll see Educate Together’s view and you might find a few smatterings of opinions on discussion fora and blogs. The one thing you won’t find is information from the VEC itself.
In this article, I’m going to try and piece together what the model is and what it isn’t. I want to find out why many politicians are highly enthusiastic about it, (Joanna Tuffy, 2010). I want to find out why the Catholic church favours it over other models, (Archbishop Martin, 2007). I want to find out why everyone else is viewing it with suspicion and why it’s nearly impossible to find out anything about what happens in the four walls of the schools.
The VEC model is a pilot programme, which started in 2008. Two schools were opened and the plan was to see if their model of education worked. This model was different from the two models that exist in Ireland. The first is the denominational model where children are taught a specific religious programme within school time. The most common of these types of school is the Catholic primary school. In denominational schools, all children are indoctrinated in the teachings of the particular religion throughout the day though children can be withdrawn from discrete religion classes. The other model available to children is the Educate Together model. This model is known as a multi-denominational model. In the Educate Together charter, this means that children are not discriminated based on the culture, race or creed. Therefore, no religious instruction is taught during the school day. Instead, an ethics programme is run where children learn about many belief systems together. They also learn about spirituality, morality, environmental studies and equality. Everyone learns together. Children who wish to have religious instruction do so after school. Therefore everything from Koranic studies to Confirmation preparation is done after school in Educate Together schools.
My understanding of the VEC primary model is that it’s supposed to be a compromise of the two. It seems that the VEC view themselves as a “faith-inclusive multi-denominational” model whereas they view Educate Together as faith exclusive. To explain, the VEC’s definition of inclusiveness is that faith formation is taught during the school day whereas in Educate Together schools it is taught exclusive of the school day.
While there are many similarities between the Educate Together model and the VEC model with regards to enrollment policies, curriculum and ethical education, the fundamental difference is summed up well by Fintan McCutcheon, principal of Balbriggan Educate Together with his acronyms FFISH and FFOSH (Faith Formation inside/outside of school hours).
FFISH opens up lots of questions for a model that purports to be able to give faith formation to all of its students during the school day. Firstly, who is going to teach faith formation to the children? I assume it’s the class teacher. On this assumption, how can these teachers teach faith formation to Sikh, Jewish or Muslim children, when no teacher training college provides training in the Guru Granth Sahib, the Torah or the Koran? All Irish undergraduate teacher training is done in Catholic or Church of Ireland institutions. I think I can safely assume that any child from a minority is not given faith formation in their own culture. That is the first (and very major) caveat.
A simple Google search reveals the plan. From information received under the Freedom of Information Act, procedures show that the schools currently involved in the VEC primary model have “already been pre-configured to ensure that Catholic faith-formation classes will be offered within the compulsory school day”, (Paul Rowe, The Irish Times, April 15, 2008).
Rowe continues, “children will be registered according to the religious identity of their parents, and teachers will be required to supervise their separation at set times during the week. Only those faiths considered to be the ‘main religions in the school community’ will be provided with State-funded faith-formation teachers, and those that do not qualify will be taught a common ethics programme.”
So there is an answer. If you are lucky enough to be part of the Catholic community in your class, you get to stay there during religion time. If you’re not, it’s the “other” class for you. I think one can dress this up in as many ways as they can possibly think but this is segregation of children based on religious beliefs. It says that children can learn together for most subjects but at a certain time, some of the children must leave the room. In effect it is what happens currently in the majority of denominational schools, except this time the school can offer supervision to those choosing not to do religion classes. No wonder the majority denominations are welcoming the model. Essenitally, the VEC model is the current denominational model dressed up under a different name.
So why are so many people angry about this? Children who wish for a religious education in school are catered for and children who don’t get an ethics programme, supposedly similar to that given in Educate Together.
On one level, it’s a fair question. Isn’t this a decent compromise? There are obviously a lot of parents around who do wish for their children to have faith formation in school. You can see this in every local newspaper around May with hundreds of children in white dresses posing with their families.
However, when the vast majority of schools in the country offer faith formation in Catholicism, why do we need another model of primary education that actively encourages the same when there are so few schools that offer an alternative? According to a press release from Educate Together in 2007, the original Educate Together schools also provided FFISH but this was changed in 1978 due to the ethical difficulties surrounding them. Some of the questions that Educate Together addressed were:
Would there be a minimum number of children required before a commitment to teach FFISH would be met? What provision would be necessary to provide appropriate classroom space? Who would source, recruit and pay teachers of specific religious instruction? As the national school system is based on a single teacher delivering the whole programme, what obligations will be placed on that teacher about the teaching of religion? What would be timetabled for children who come from families with a personal creed? (Educate Together, 2007) Even in 1978, when Ireland was a much less multicultural society, Educate Together could not find answers to these questions and moved to a FFOSH system, which is widely praised internationally as a model for primary school education.
From reading the views of politicians such as Joanna Tuffy, (20th May 2010) and Brian Hayes (20th March 2010), they seem to view all schools, even Catholic Schools, as “in reality”, multi-denominational. It is clear from their articles that they don’t see the problems the VEC model faces because they seem happy with the way Catholic primary schools have been dealing with the influx of children from other faiths. Simply enrolling children from different cultures does not make a school multi-denominational.
I was hoping to answer my questions about the VEC primary model by writing this article but I have only ended up with more questions that I had when I started. However, I believe all these questions could be answered with the biggest question mark I started off with. Why are there no VEC primary school web sites so we can see what really happens inside the four walls? A school that has a web site opens itself to the wider community. Have the VEC got something to hide?
0 thoughts on “Why don’t VEC primary schools have web sites?”
It’s not just at primary level Simon.
I’ve been trying to find out about our local VEC school here and they have one page piggy-backing off the County VEC site, with some photos & news about the student activity, and the visits of politicians etc, but nothing of substance about ethos etc. There is a facebook page too!
It’s my perception that this local school has a very Catholic bias, and I can’t get the low-down on this from the school either on paper (I’ve asked) or on the net.
Is it because only two are opened and not for very long. They are also not stand alone schools they are part of the VEC. But give them time and they may have websites like VEC second level schools such as this one:
I am enthuasistic about the VEC in general because of its record at second and third level. At second level they were before their time in introducing co educational and multi denominational education. VECs brought on board the church as stakeholders in the education system. That was a historical fact that they took on board. They were innovative, providing education for those that otherwise would have been cast aside, such as those from disadvantaged backgrounds, those with illiteracy, prisoners,people returning for second chance education. With the RTCs, that later became Institutes of Technology, they widened access to third level. Long before universities introduced programmes such as access programmes to try and attract people from lower socio economic background to college, RTCs were already catering for a much wider cross section of students, opening their doors at night to people that couldn’t study during the day and providing a flexible model of education that allowed a person to transfer from apprenticeship to certificate to diploma to degree to postgraduate. Ballyfermot College of Education educated this year’s Irish Oscar winner, and the three other Irish Oscar nominees, being the firt college to introduce animation studies in this country. Community colleges and VEC second level schools in general, none of which are private schools, have produced some of the top achieving leaving certificate students while also catering for those that are not suited to the traditional leaving certificate or junior certificate and may instead take the Junior Certificate Vocational Programme, or the Leaving Certificate Applied. In Collinstown Park Community College in my constituency in Neilstown the former Principal stated in an interview in the Irish Times a couple of years ago that between the years 1998 and 2003 that participation levels of the students there had increased by 500 per cent. This in one of the most disadvantaged parts of the Country, a RAPID area. It is a model of inclusive education lauded by late former Workers Party T.D. and Leader Tomas MacGiolla described Vocational Education Committes as providing as a system of education that was democratic, non-denominational, non-selective and innovative, which welcomed people that other educational institutions cast aside.
It is a state education and if the church is moving out of education, the state has a role in filling that gap, just as it did at second level. More than 95 per cent of primary school children attend catholic schools. If that is likely to change the VEC is a model that can bring the church on board in that regard.
I think an excellent model in general are our national schools, whether they be catholic schools, Church of Ireland, or Educate Together. I believe if the state is to play an increasing role in future, which is highly likely, especially since the taxpayer is paying for the schools, the teachers etc. then the VEC has done a remarkable job at second level and can play a similar role at primary. That is not to say other models are not excellent too.
The VEC is accountable to more than just parents, it is accountable to the wider community and the community does have an interest in the schools in the community, because they are state funded, payed for by the taxpayer, and the buildings should be open for other uses such as childcare, community meetings and so on. At second level they are used for community education. This is an international concept, namely that the wider community and not just the parents, children and teachers, are stakeholders in relation to schools. This idea of members of the wider community having a stake in the schools in the community is a core feature of VEC provided education.
One issue in relation to the primary schools is that the Government has delayed in introducing legislation for the VEC primary schools. It has always been a feature of the accountability of VEC that it is underpinned by legislation and the need for legislation for primary schools is a matter that needs to be addressed.
One final point, the Educate Together model has a lot in common with the VEC, and they filled a gap in primary education in a similar way that VECs filled a gap at second level. And the VEC wants to move into primary and likewise Educate Together wants to move into Second Level. I note that above you highlight quotes from Paul Rowe identifying as a flaw in the VEC primary school model the fact that faith formation is taught during school hours. It should be pointed that this used to be the case with Educate Together Primary Schools too. Of course this issue should be looked at, and in that regard the VEC primary schools are pilot schools, but it is not an argument against the VEC primary school model existing any more than it was when Educate Together primary schools when they originally taught faith formation during school hours.
Thanks for the mention by the way and I hope my comment is helpful to you, which is an attempt to clarify my views, as a politician on this matter
Hi Joanna
Thanks for your comments. I think the big question mark over the VEC model is its lack of transparency at primary level. It is impossible to find any information about the model, how it works, what its ethos is, etc. All that one can find is a small offshoot from the main VEC web sites referring to the fact that the schools exist. I don’t accept that a school in the 21st century can get away with not having a web site. Every ET school that opened since 2008 had a web site long before the school itself opened.
There’s also the question of why there’s so much enthusiasm for the model at political and church level. I don’t understand why this is the case. You refer to the VEC being ahead of its time, but it is over 30 years behind its time if it is still believes that faith formation can still be done in school time. This practice ended in ET schools in 1978 when it was seen as divisive to children. If there is so much in common between ET schools and VEC schools, and the only main difference being the issue of faith formation within school time (which you believe will be phased out anyway), why is there less of a political drive for ET schools?
Perhaps, it’s because. you mention that you support VEC schools because of their record at 2nd and 3rd level. I don’t have an issue with VEC schools but the problem of faith formation with school time is a huge flaw which we’ve all known about for years. Opening up more and more VEC schools before the model is tried and tested is not only illegal, it’s going to make it harder to rid the flaws once they become “culture” within a school. For example, if one tried to take out the huge church involvement in many 2nd level VECs, there would be uproar. Furthermore there appears to be a much higher political drive for VEC primary schools than there is for ET second level schools. The ET second level model is ahead of its time. I think ET have proved themselves at primary level as a hugely successful model yet only a handful of politicians are opening supporting the it in comparison to the VEC at primary level.
I think a lot of the question marks would be erased if this new model was more transparent. The VEC need to set up a specific web site for its primary involvement and the individual schools need to share what they do. All we hear is that the model is working well but we have no proof of this. All we have is a Prime Time investigation, which showed up all the flaws. There was no press release from the VEC to counteract the claims of the programme. Coming to the end of its second academic year, we are still none the wiser of what goes on in VEC primary schools and that, in my opinion, is its biggest flaw of all.
Sorry Simon,
I ommitted the link to the website for a VEC community College, which is the Community College I mention above, in my constituency, Collinstown Park Community College:
http://www.collinstownpark.ie/
I think there is a need for the legislation to be brought in by the Minister to address the issue of transparency at primary level, but there is a much wider problem in relation to the transparency of primary schools that are not VEC ones. That is an issue that has been raised by the IPPN for example in its proposals regarding school governance and it has raised the need for more genuine democratic accountability regarding Boards of Management and a clearer deliniation of roles regarding Boards of Management on the one hand the management team that runs the school on a day to day basis.
When it comes to second level education though, the VEC is a much more transparent model than other models of second level eduation level in Ireland to date. Both VECs and school boards of managements include representatives elected by the voters at local elections, in the case of VECs there are meetings that can be attended by the public and the press, minutes, motions, community representation, and so on. It is more in line than with the model of other countries, where elected reps are on school boards That is not to say there is not a need for improvement or reform in relation to Ireland’s vocational education committees.
On the issue of the catholic church being favourable to VEC primary schools, if they are, maybe that is because you dont just banish the church from education with all its experience, the input it has made, the excellent education thatn teachers in catholic schools provide, the 95 per cent of children attending catholic schools. Rather if we are moving to a state model (much preferable and more accountable than privately bodies, including the church, in my view) , then the VEC has shown that bringing on board the church, the church of Ireland, the commmunity, as stakeholders, can be done. That is not to say Educate Together could not move in a similar democratically accountable direction (accountable to all stakeholders that is including the person in the community with no children of schoolgoing age). Whatever model we choose to develop as a State at primary level, that has state monies invested in it, it needs to be done on the basis of stakeholder involvement, and all of us are stakeholders including the church, including the other patrons, the parents, the children but also all citizens, and we all have something to contribute to the debate about the best model for the state to invest in.
It is that willingness to engage with the wider community in terms of the model of education that it provides that stands to the VEC and has ensured it has had developed very sucessful community colleges throughout the Country, that children go to having gone to primary schools of a variety of patronages including catholic, church of Ireland, and Educate Together ones. Perhaps it can bring that kind of vision to bear at primary level and why not? Maybe some other state model of education should be explored other than the VEC. But why the skeptism about the VEC model of primary as opposed to other models of primary school patronage? There are only 2 pilot schools opened, surely they deserve to be given a chance. I bet there was skeptism about Educate Together schools initially and they have turned out to be good schools.
On the issue of faith formation – this is not a fundamental principal as has been shown by Educate Together who chose at one time to do it during school hours and at another time to cease doing so – in any case don’t most people argue for choice and therefore what if the parents in a school choose to faith formation during school hours, what then? But if Educate Together could decide to change their policy on faith formation, I presume a similar change could be made in relation to the VEC primary schools. It is hardly an argument against those schools per se.
Just on the Prime Time Programme, the VEC was not asked to be on the Panel after the footage shown. They should have been, in my view. There was other comment on the programme that you might be interested in though, in a local media outlet ‘Community Voice’ and I attach link to their article on the Prime Time Programme you refer to below.
http://www.communityvoice.ie/pages/CV154/CV154c01.htm
I don’t think absence of a website for a school is a sign of lack of transparency. Websites are a recent phenomenon. There are other ways to be transparent. But websites are a good way to communicate information and I think those schools should have websites. But far more information about those new primary schools is probably accessible to the public and their elected representatives than is available about a school that is owned by a private body.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head where we’re never going to agree. I don’t believe that any church has any place in state education anymore. Whilst the church has had a reasonably successful role in running schools in the past, it is high time that they reduce their input. Experience is no longer the most valuable tool in the 21st century. We need to get children questioning and thinking outside the box. I believe a system where there is real choice for parents must exist.
With over 95% of schools under denominational patronage, there is realistically still no choice for parents who wish to have a multi-denominational education. You say that faith formation is all about choice. If I have a child that I would like to make their Communion and get prepared for it, I can send them to any of 100% of schools in the country. All schools, including Educate Together, allow for this. If I want preparation to be done during school time, this figure reduces to 93% which is still essentially a monopoly. Can you imagine in your job if the Ceann Comhairle forced you all to say Catholic prayers before, during and after Dáil sessions? Can you even imagine if in the middle of a Dáil session, all the non-Catholics were asked to leave the chamber for an alternative session?
The new VEC model essentially continues the practice of separating children according to their faith, a system which has proven not to work for all sorts of reasons. We also are forgetting about the hundreds of teachers who are not comfortable with faith formation during the school day. Why must teachers be discriminated in their work based on their religious views? With the VEC model, which teachers are going to teach minority religions during the school day if there’s enough demand? Sure enough, we have a plethora of qualified teachers to teach about Catholicism and Christianity. What about qualified teachers to teach Sikhism or Islam during the day?
I am happy for the two pilot schools to check if their practices are working but the fact that three new VEC schools are opening this September shows that despite no feedback and no transparency, they are still expanding. Everyone knows that there was huge demand for an ET school in Carpenterstown but the VEC model was forced through for some reason – why don’t people know why?
I also fundamentally disagree with you that a lack of a web site is ok in the 21st century. It is a disgrace that technology is not high on the agenda of every primary school when we are living in a technological age. Everyone has the skills and time to create a basic web site for free using the NCTE’s services.
Simon,
A couple of years ago a survey of parents of children at primary found that 3 quarters would have a preference for a state multidenominational model of primary education.
At present many of those parents send their children to catholic schools and have attached their identity to those schools, admire the work of the teachers, the principals and the boards of management of those skills. Most people would see the transition from management and ownership by the church to the state as one of transition that involved all stakeholders including the church. That is why it cannot be that one day 95 per cent of children to catholic and the next 75 per cent go to multi denominational. Most people would understand that the process of change would involve the church in some way and that is what happened in relation to the church and its handover of control of local second level schools to the VEC via community schools and designated and of late non designated VEC multi denominational colleges.
The issue of the teaching of religion at VEC second level schools is dealt with in exactly the same way as Educate Together schools at primary. The issue is a valid one and can be addressed, just as Educate Together did over the years. I doubt there were prime time programmes “exposing” faith formation being taught in Educate Together Schools when they had that approach to teaching faith formation at the time.
The VEC is getting caught up in the middle of an anti church agenda, and unfairly I believe. Read the Community Voice article above. The parents, and Principal both said they do not segregate children according to faith in the manner portrayed in the Prime Time Programme. They say the programme was unfair in that the only parent shown was one who campaigned against the school but although a parent of a child at the schools concerned was interviewed by Prime Time, Prime Time chose not to show that parent during the programme. Don’t you as a teacher, in whatever type of school you teach in, think that the parents, children and teachers of the the VEC primary school shown in the programme have rights too? Would you not give them the same benefit of the doubt in their choosing to send their children to that school/teach in that school, as you would give to the parents that send children to your school or teach at the school you teach in?
Educate Together has more in common with the VEC than distinguishes it, so why this setting up of one model against the other if your real concern is faith schools?
I had written a rather lengthy piece clarifying a few points you made but I feel we’ll be going around in circles. As an advocate of the VEC at primary level, I think it would be much more beneficial if you explained the following things to me. I would request that you refer to primary level rather than second level as they are different animals.
1. How is faith formation currently dealt with in VEC primary schools? This is the most important question. Please explain what actually happens at religion time.
2. Do VEC primary schools have to teach Catholic faith formation by default?
3. What is your definition of multidenominationalism?
By answering the questions, you’ll probably do a lot of people a lot of service as it’s impossible to find out this information from anyone. Believe me, I’ve tried.
Simon,
I am an advocate of lots of types of schools. I have supported in one way or another all the primary schools in my area, the catholic ones, the Gaelscoils, the educate together ones, the church of Ireland one, the montessori one, the ones in RAPID areas, the DEIS ones.
I don’t generally have to go around defending schools. For some reason the VEC primary schools have been singled out for criticism, in particular following the Prime Time programme you refer to. As you will see from the Community Voice article I attach, parents, teachers and the Princiapal felt the programme was unfair to the school and said that the children were not segregated in the manner portrayed in the programme. I suggest you read that article which I attach here again.
The experience at second level is relevant. Isn’t the argument for Educate Together at Second Level the good work they do at primary. Surely a similar argument can be made for the VEC at primary level.
You are right about the need for more information about the new schools, and as I said it would help if the legislation underpinning these new schools was in place. In the meantime there are links to information and views about those schools that may be of interest to you, which I have found by doing searches on google this evening:
http://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/PressReleases/PressReleases2010/CommunityNationalSchools15210/Title,15058,en.php
(This links to comments by Sheila Nunan, General Secretary of the INTO about these new schools. She also addresses the issue of faith formation in these comments)
http://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/OtherPublications/InTouch/2009/InTouchDecember2009/InTouchDec09.pdf
(On page 45 of the above issue of InTouch magazine, the INTO magazine, there is an article about Community National Schools by Ms. Marie Griffen, Acting CEO, of County Dublin VEC)
http://www.google.com/cse?cref=http://search.gov.ie/customcse/www.oireachtas.ie&encoding=utf-8&q=community+national+schools
(And finally, here is a submission by the Department of Education and Skills to the Joint Oireachtas Commmittee on Education and Skills that gives details about this new model of school, including information about the teaching of religion in these schools)
I was rather hoping instead of sending links from other sources (all of which I’ve read), that you would give me, in plain English, what goes on at religion time in VEC primary schools.
Simon,
I am not a spokesperson for the schools. I am just a politician making some points in a debate in which a range of views are being expressed. I accept your point that there needs to be more information about the new VEC community national school model and how it deals with faith formation, but I personally am not hung up on this issue. I doubt the VECs teach faith formation in any more of an intrusive way than the vast majority of schools in Ireland, whose main role is just to educate, not to form faith. I am o f the impression that VECs try to make pupils aware and respectful of the diversity of religion and none in a similar way to Educate Together schools. Educate Together schools arrange for faith formation outside of school hours but in the school building. They facilitiate it in otherwords. Is there such a difference between doing faith formation in a school at 3.30 in the afternoon rather than 2,30 in the afternoon. There is a middle ground in this debate and there are many people somewhere in the middle on this issue rather than at your end of the spectrum (no religion in schools at all) and those that believe in denominational models as the best model.
In a way what you are arguing for is non denominational education rather than multi denominational. That is a legitimate stance, but there are a range of views on this issue and the challenge at state level is to find a model that has as broad a support as possible, amongst all stakeholders, as described above.
I am sure if you were to contact County Dublin VEC that has delivered the first two schools they would give you the information you are looking for
RTE’s Prime Time has examined the issue of the teaching of religion in the new Community National Schools. The programme can be viewed through the following link;
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0408/primetime.html
Thanks Emma for the link. I think it’s shocking that the politicians that are promoting the model don’t know exactly how it works. For all they know, anything could be happening in the classrooms. A Very dangerous thing to do, in my opinion.
Just to up date you on that Prime Time Programme – The Broadcasting Complaints Commission has just upheld a complaint against the programme under the category of Fairness, objectivity and impartiality.
I just want to point out that the BAI upheld a number of complaints from VEC sources NOT on the basis of ANY inaccuracy in my report on the Community National Schools. It did NOT support numerous complaints of innacuracies and unfairness in relation to this report. Complaints that have been repeated on this website and elsewhere by Joanna Tuffy.
The complaint was upheld because the BAI formed the view that the Department of Education or the VEC’s should have been represented on the panel discussion afterwards. As the programme made clear the Department had refused to participate.
So complaints repeated by Joanna Tuffy that the report somehow misrepresented the fact that children are divided up during the school day in the new schools were NOT upheld.
The BAI had no issue with what RTE filmed and portrayed, (filmed of course with the full agreement of the school principal).
The complaints, RTE’s response, and the rulings are all available on the BAI website at http://www.bai.ie/broadcasting_complaints_decisions.html
Incidentally, Joanna Tuffy’s Labour party colleague and the party’s spokesperson on Education, Ruairi Quinn, was highly critical of the origins of the new model in this same report.
Generally, there appears to be an ultra-secular agenda ‘out there’ that is being fuelled mostly by Educate Together and their proponents.
To my mind the VEC is NOT part of the church (of any god) but people and parents in particular are being scare mongered constantly in this regard, i.e. that their children are somehow being indoctrinated and/or worse, socially excluded, in school life.
So, of course Simon, and Emma, the tacit alternative must be Educate Together and its brand of education? Well I don’t think so actually.
I believe Simon’s comments (above) generally do a disservice to the vocational education system, to its multidenominational inclusiveness and to the many teachers (colleagues?) who work tirelessly for the all round wellbeing and future life skills of the children in their care. These teachers also provide a full extra-curricular and sports programme within the school roster (much more important to my mind than the small percentage of time that is spent on lessons in faith), whether that is FFISH or FFOSH!
The inference Simon makes that a school system is not transparent (or has ‘something to hide’), because a particular school may not have a super duper website, is laughable. He effectively suggests there is some form of conspiracy at work on the part of the VECs. Cue further laughter. As a parent, I simply don’t buy that point. I also don’t necessarily need a website to understand the actual culture and ethos of my children’s school. I’d prefer to be more directly involved and to learn these things at first hand.
As for the Primetime item, Emma (above) can call it any way she wants but here is the nub of it… “Overall, the Committee was of the view that there was not sufficient fairness achieved in the broadcast between all sides to the matter under discussion. The Committee, therefore, found that the subject matter was not treated in a fair, objective and impartial manner.”
Thanks for your comments Thomas. It’s a pity that throughout your comments that we are still none the wiser about what goes on during the half hour everyday when religion is taught (almost 11% of teaching time). As much as people like yourself try to turn this into a secular/anti-secular argument, it is not. This conversation is simply trying to find out information about what happens during religion time in these schools. No one from the VEC has come out to refute the accusations made in the Prime Time programme. No VEC primary school has a web site at all, (super duper or not). While you might disregard my point, you still haven’t added to our knowledge about the VEC model.
Right now I have a problem with the VEC model because if children are segregated during religion time and Catholic religion is taught by default, this is not moving away from a church-run system, which the majority of Irish people want. The fact that these schools are being allowed to expand without any evaluation even though they are state-run schools (everyone’s business) and the fact they are still a pilot scheme worries me greatly. If this model is similar to what is described by the Prime Time model, then I feel we have great cause for concern.
I am 100% sure than the quality of teaching, curricular or otherwise, is excellent. This isn’t a criticism of teachers or their work and accusing me of criticising their work or their care for children is both unhelpful and wrong. At the risk of repeating myself too much, my argument is about transparency for a state-run pilot scheme that is being allowed to expand without evaluation. If someone from the VEC were to explain what happens instead of saying nothing, it would be very helpful.
Hi
Guess what? The Naas Vec community school got a website!
http://Www.naascns.ie
And guess what?
It revealed nothing yet but does say it’s ” multi belief” ?
Maybe it will be revealed all in September.
Or maybe not.
Hi.
Sorry as I tried an earlier and much longer post but it disappeared, so if you happen to have received it you might try and include it here? Thanks very much.
My goodness but the gloves are off with Rozz (above) as regards her view of the VECs. Imagine that school in Naas saying they are multi-belief but revealing nothing at the same time. Are you a conspiracy theorist too Rozz? Is the VEC the new Irish secret service? Probably not, but let’s hope that the principal will at least do a web design course over the summer as well as painting the school and unblocking the toilets.
Simon, I do accept that you were not criticising teachers or their work or their care for children. As you would know – as you are a teacher – the aim of the primary school curriculum is to nourish fully the life of the child with age appropriate content and teaching methods. Community national schools would clearly follow this aim just like any other national schools.
As regards religious education, I can’t see why this information is not already well out there in the public domain. Primetime tried to do a report on what goes on but quite clearly they made a bags of it and their report was found not to be balanced. I think they should revisit the topic and that all relevant sides should participate fully in the debate.
By the way, the term you use above – ‘accusations’ – in saying that there were ‘accusations made in the Prime Time programme’ – that is really off beam. You’d swear that there was something half criminal going on. You’ve got to be less emotive in your language about this subject. Primetime is not a prosecutor, it certainly has no entitlement to accuse anyone of anything. They are just the media and you wouldn’t believe everything that comes from the media.
In the new schools, the children are taught together at religion time (about 30 minutes every day) for at least 80% of the time during the school year. On those days, they do some form of meditation or contemplation together. This is a quiet and reflective time for the children that is different to the rest of the school day.
Then, for about 5 minutes roughly twice a week, children are divided into those who believe in god and those who believe in many gods or none. Those who believe in god will reference him (or is that her?) in their contemplation and those who don’t, don’t. This is arranged in consultation with parents. Nobody is ramming any religion down anyone’s throat and catholicism is not taught ‘by default’ as you put it.
For about 3-4 weeks a year, during the religion time, children are then divided into groups for faith specific lessons. That could be Catholic, Christian, Quaker, Muslim, Polytheist/nontheist. Again this is dependent on the backgrounds of the children in the school and the wishes of the parents.
Apart from the obvious differences in religion and ‘gods’, the lessons appear to follow similar themes – all related to the goodness of life and living really. This is FFISH and I would say that most non-secular parents would favour this (the same as sports are included in the school day in the VEC) as it makes the whole scheme of things an awful lot easier.
As regards Primetime and the worries it created for you, I think you really have to forget that programme and wait for the next one they do because the BAI has ruled that “the subject matter was not treated in a fair, objective and impartial manner,” RTE itself broadcast that finding just after the news on Monday evening.
Certainly, the community national school model must be evaluated (as you say) but I think that there is less to detract from and more to welcome in their model than many on the secular side of the debate would probably like to admit.
Thomas
Thank you for your comments once again. I’m sorry you feel that I am criticising teachers in my article. However I can assure you that this is not the case. My criticism is about FFISH and segregation, which is not something can can be controlled by the teachers in the schools.
Although you appear to be surprised about the mystery of the VEC and its teaching of religion, this is the first time that I have seen it explained anywhere. Like the Prime Time investigation, I can only take your word for it (and I have no reason to doubt you.) I’m not picking on you or asking you to be a spokesperson for the VEC but your explanation of the system is the only one available to people outside the system and it raises a number of questions.
1. What curriculum is followed and how does one get a hold of it?
2. How does dividing the children up for 5 minutes work? As a teacher, it takes that long to get a bunch of children to line up.
3. Under the freedom of information act, it was found that an arrangement has been made so that Catholicism would be given special treatment in that Catholicism would be taught in the schools no matter what. Is this the 3-4 week period?
4. During this 3-4 week period of school, who teaches the non-Christian religions? the reason I ask this is because I have never met a qualified teacher with appropriate qualifications to teach Islam, Judaism, etc.
5. I am also concerned that 3-4 weeks is considered enough by all parties to prepare a child for sacraments. I’m fairly sure that they need a lot longer. Perhaps, you can explain the process of a child making their Communion in the school.
6. How many children constitute enough for FFISH for this 3-4 week period?
Sorry for bombarding you with these questions. You mentioned that you’d swear there was something “half-criminal” going on with these schools. These schools are supposedly pilot schools. Without any evaluation, they are being allowed to expand and open in new areas where the model is untested. Another important factor is that the schools are state-run, which means they should be transparent (and secular – but that’s a different argument). They are very clearly not transparent in nature unlike every other patron body, which offers their curriculum, their management structure, their ethos, etc in the public domain. I don’t think it’s unusual for people to be suspicious, to question or to start drawing their own conclusions from snippets of information found from the Freedom of Information Act.
It’s a shame that this web site, which focuses on technology in education (in the main) is the sole place where one can now find information on what goes on during religion time in VEC primary schools. Perhaps, the VEC might consider opening an online discussion to alleviate all our concerns. If they’ve nothing to hide, why not?
Simon,
In 2007 Mary Hanafin invited the VEC in County Dublin to be patron of a new model of national school which is the community national school or CNS. I think there are also schools due to open in Meath and Kildare.
Up until then, as you’d know, there were basically two types of school at primary level, these were the denominational schools (largely Catholic who run about 90% of all the 3,000 or so national schools) and Educate Together (who now have over 50 schools around the country). Having just looked at some of your other postings I gather you are the principal of an Educate Together School.
Educate Together say they are multi denominational but they don’t provide for any religious education during the school day. Instead they teach what I would call an ethical programme during the ‘religion’ half-hour each day. My impression is that this is basically a form of ethics and teaching about religions. If the parents want religion taught in school for their children, it has to take place outside of the school day. Some schools will make space available but parents sometimes have to pay then for religion to be taught to their children.
A community national school has to provide for religious education for children of all faiths (and none) during the school day in line with what their parents want. The logic here is that if the state wants to move from catholic patroned schools then it makes a lot of sense to have a model that satisfies the catholic church as well as the other belief traditions. This includes humanism and atheism. Then it will be easier to hand over schools and parents will be happy as well because a lot of parents still want religious education for their children done at school (If nothing else, it saves them having to do it!).
As well as that, as you’d know, leaving children after school is not an option for a lot of parents, even if they could afford the classes. The community (neighbours and friends of the same faiths) also has a role to play of course. This is pretty much acknowledged by all faiths and increasingly so by the catholic church who were able to leave all faith development up to schools in the past.
However, providing religious instruction for children of all faiths during the school day is not easy (as Educate Together discovered when they tried and failed at it in their early years – they had initially thought this was the right way to go but it turned out not to be the case, in their view).
Because the CNS model is run by the state and because of equality legislation, they have to provide for all children in the exact same manner and they can’t privilege one group over another. This is the law.
The new comunity schools have a programme called Goodness Me and Goodness You. In this programme, the children are taught together – mainly using stories, songs and poems from all traditions – for 80% of the time.
The focus is essentially on human goodness, the goodness of each other and the goodness of the world around us. At the end of a religion class 2 or 3 times a week, those who believe in a single god (at present mainly christians and muslims) are invited to think a prayer to their god (but not to Jesus). The children whose families believe in multiple gods, along with humanists and atheists are asked simply to meditate on the lesson instead.
For 3 – 4 weeks during the year, the children spend all religion classes tohether in their faith groups (in the current schools because of the children attending, those groups are catholic, christian, muslim and others). They are taught faith specific material, for their own faith, in those weeks.
All of the programmes for each faith group are written by the same writer so that they’re all looking at the same moral themes other than the actual religious specifics. Teachers then have a programme to teach and they are given ongoing support including in-service, so they’re not expected to be experts in all the religions as such. They have a curriculum to follow which includes a comprehensively respectful approach to multiple faith formation, inside school hours.
At the end of every week throughout the year, children bring home a worksheet to their parents to fill them in on the week’s lesson and to encourage their interest.
While the children are receiving some specific religious education, there is still much more required of parents and their (faith) community with this model (think of how prayer and religion was knitted into every part of your school day growing up! That doesn’t happen here!). While the CNS will help to prepare children for the sacraments much more will be required of the other participants – their parents and their faith community.
Children are well used to being put into different groups for English, for support and lots of other things so it’s not a big deal for them to change a class layout or format for faith purposes. It is done quickly and simply in all cases and as the groups are actually quite general (believers in god, or not), the issue of numbers for any particular group has not arisen.
Anecdotal evidence so far is that the children and their parents are happy with the religion classes (but of course they’d need to be included in any assessment of the pilot programme). The main point though is that parents from faith traditions (other than catholicism) should feel they are being valued and respected for who they are.
The community national schools provides for faith formation in line with the wishes of parents and that’s very important.
You can’t expect a child to leave their religious identity at the school door because they’re afraid to mention it. The new CNS model embraces and develops diversity and it helps children look at one another’s practices with respect. Surely this is a better preparation for the new Ireland than ignoring religion and difference in the reality of everyday school life? The different religious faith traditions have many similar themes and there is a great respect in acknowledging that.
It is also important that these new community national schools don’t develop into some kind of ‘anti-religion’ society because for most people (me at least), religion is still important at some point in their lives. Any one group cannot decide on getting rid of religion because that’s as extreme in another direction as religious domination. What the new model is trying to achieve is a middle ground where religions are taught in a non-threatening manner as part of the inclusive nature of the whole school ethos.
Some other schools take children from anywhere and they keep enrolments for years in advance. Community national schools operate on a catchment area basis because schools should be an integral part of a community (they can also offer parent classes where possible and make the school available for other groups after school hours). They don’t keep enrolments for years in advance as that would not be inclusive of recent arrivals into the community.
Basically, Irish society now wants a primary school model that any parent will be comfortable sending their child to and be assured of getting a quality education (at the end of the day this is the most important thing for most parents).
With the new Community National Schools they can have religion or not but there is no extreme position involved. In that way, the new schools will be inclusive of society in general and not of any one particular interest group. So I think they deserve a chance, and yes of course they need to be evaluated (as do all schools).
Thanks for the informative post Thomas. It’s great to finally see how the VEC primary model works. While I don’t agree that it is an inclusive model, I have to resign to the fact that if this is what parents want, this is what they’ll get. If you are interested in finding out more about Educate Together’s ethics programme, there is plenty of information available on their site, http://www.educatetogether.ie. The ethics programme is a lot more than just teaching about religions.
J Tuffy i think you’re being devious and petty to compare what ET used do in the 80’s with what happens now, it was all they were socially allowed to do.
“I doubt the VECs teach faith formation in any more of an intrusive way than the vast majority of schools in Ireland, whose main role is just to educate, not to form faith.”
so they you go you admit that theres no change, no progression and as in primary schools today faith formation is embedded in the entire curriculum so it shall remain.laws don’t make it equal there is still catholic domination if not monopoly with 90%+ schools and especially with all the teacher training schools for primary being religious institutions(apart from the online place). if we’re going to change system its needs to be actual change rather then re-concreting catholicism into schools for another hundred years. the catholic church should be happy to embrace secularism its the only system that works
What a poor contribution from Joanna Tuffy. By dodging the question like this, she displays a very weak grasp of the issue. Alternatively, she’s deliberately avoiding the core point of your article. I don’t know which is worse.
Judging by her comments on this post, there’s no difference between Labour and Fianna Fáil on religious education policy. How depressing.
Having stumbled across this site and this debate, I am confused.
Why don’t you simply ask your C.E.O. Mr. Paul Rowe of Educate Together?
He is on the committee or group that is designing the faith formation programme for the Community National Schools with the academic from the Teacher Training College who puts it into a teachable format.
He’s on the group inspite of the acknowledged views of ET on FFISH, isn’t that supportive. I’m sure he’d clarify matters for one of his own principals.
Hi Martin
Thanks for the comment. To answer your question, as far as I know, Paul is an advisor to the group. This does not mean he has any role on the content of the programme.
In any case, my concern is the lack of web site for the VEC primary model and the message this sends out. In recent days, I’ve been made aware that the Dublin VEC has added a couple of articles about the model on its main web site. It goes some way to clarifying what happens in class. There is also an article from the principal of one of the schools reflecting on his first year. I think the natural next step is a school web site for each of the 5 schools or at very least a Twitter or Facebook account.
Young man, old and rebarbitive I may be. Senile I am not.
An advisory committee or reference group working with a project manager (in this case that young lassie from Marino) by it’s very nature shapes the outcome of the project.
Whatever may have been your intention, amount of palaver on FFISH and FFOSH on the above posts would make anyone believe that it’s the real focus of your questions. As to websites for schools that have not yet opened….all I can say is that not every school has the money to develop professional websites from day one, as I notice your colleague in Portlaoise. Thankfully, the principals of the schools which my grandchildren, and yes there is on in an ET, by an large get on with the business of developing life long learning. Good Luck.
Don’t really understand your point, especially your final one. It seems to me that you are correlating not being able to provide learning opportunities with a school having a web site. Our school web site cost nothing to develop.
wordpress is a free and simple way for schools to make their own website/blog.
Students as young as 2nd class could even do it!