What do most schools mean when they say Religious Education?

Hello? Hello. You're very welcome to if I were the minister for education from unsharp dot Nat. What do most schools mean when they say religious education? It's 20 24, 20 25. Back to school time. And I'm delighted to be back for another year of if I were the minister for education. For those of you who don't know, this is a regular podcast, a produce. Hosted by me, Simon Lewis from onshore dot Nash. And if you are listing for the very first time, I hope you enjoy it. The premise of the podcast is that I take an aspect of the Irish primary education system. And I look at it in detail. And let you know what I would do if I were the minister for education, I hope you all had a lovely summer and maybe I've got the energy buckets was very energy sapping year, last year with all the stuff going on. I'm not sure how much of that is going to change. But my first episode is based on an article. That I saw of in of all papers of all the newspapers that I would see an article from the Irish Catholic. So you will not be surprised to hear that my first podcast of 2020 for 2025 is about our religion in schools. The topic I'm always coming back to. And I'm never ceases to amaze me of how many different angles. You can find fromage. But what I want to explore in this episode is what do most schools mean? When they talk about religion. In schools, I think, and I don't know if this is deliberate or not on. And I'm not saying it. I suspect it is. But when you hear about religion in schools, What do you think now? Many people. We'll think that religion means faith formation. So that's, what some people would call indoctrination. So it would mean prayers. It would mean staging, religion. As a fact, and teaching children had passing on the word of God. Some people think religion means teaching about religions. Learning about whatever the various faiths around the world. And I think. That's that certainly happens in some schools, but not as many as I'd say most people think. And where is that balance? Where we're, where is that balance between religious education? Religious instruction. Are they the same thing? And they aren't by the way. And what is the difference between them and why do we have so many ways of describing what a religion class or a religious ethos looks like? So that's what I'm going to explore today. I'm going to be helped very much by an article that I wrote my, that I wrote on this. Back a few days ago on my medium blog. If you are interested by the way in subscribing to this podcast, you can do by going to your favorite podcast and. Subscribing. As you do, but if you're interested in reading along to some of the articles that are, that I base my podcasts on, I published most of them [email protected]. And this one is called, what do most schools mean when they say religious education that was published around the 18th of August? I got worse. So maybe you're into 18th, 19th, or 20th of August. Anyway, you'll find it. You'll find it there. One of his writing, the article. I always have a cover image, a featured image. And I usually use AI to generate that image and the AI prompts that I used to generate my image was religion class in a primary school. And I was really surprised to see what came out. Of the AI generator, which was a classroom, but as you would expect, the children are sitting in rows and it's quite a multicultural classroom. Actually, I found something interesting was the children are in uniforms. They're all wearing the same clothes. But the thing that stood out to me most was across at the Christian Cross at the back of the classroom. And I felt, this is an AI generator that doesn't know that I'm in Ireland that doesn't know very much about me at all. Doesn't know anything about where it is. As such is the prevail. Of religion in schools. I just thought it was interesting that just that prompt, maybe that I'd said religion class in primary school. At the top was the religion. Data was decided upon adds despite, if you look at the picture of yourself, Ah, on the medium blog. You may wonder why. Looking at the children in the class, but the reason I wrote this article was on the back of the front page of the Irish Catholic. On the Irish Catholic reported more religion, please say school children. Now. The first thing I thought. When I saw this. Was where are they get? Not from, I thought. An amazing thing to hear young children say that they want more religion in schools ad surely they have enough fish with 10% or 20 feet is in sometimes a lot more than that, of their school day dedicated to religion. Both. I read the arch. The front page of the article that I read the I carried on. Reading it and it seemed to come from. A study, a survey from the 20th anniversary celebrations of the ombudsman for children. What they did was they released a survey about young people's thoughts on a number of issues, including education. And as I said, the Irish Catherine reported that the survey showed that young people want more religion in schools. I have to delve further. I'm most people, I think we'll be surprised at such a finding so surprised. I would say that none of the mainstream newspapers cover this survey at all. I didn't see any articles in the Irish times, or I shouldn't abandoned or the RTE or anything like that because. I guess there's a reason when stories like that. Aren't covert. And I decided I'd find out because. On surprisingly, it turned out the headline was at best misleading. When look, when one looked at the survey results in closer detail. Because when the question actually asked to students is what subjects. So you said you think there should be more subjects available in schools. What new subject would you like to see added to the curriculum now showed out this was secondary school students. So this is what they did. The options were Languages practical life skills, computer science and engineering, sports science. And then they lumped religion, psychology and drama into one of the options. I don't know why all three, how the three are interlinked. But essentially that was the most popular. And the Irish Catholic. Took from that. They ignored the psychology and drama Vish, but they said that most children want more religion in schools. Which is an interesting. View of it. But I guess. I guess that's I suppose they have to be the eternal optimists. However, if you were tasked me. If I believe, and I think this is where I want to come to is. I'm not really interested in the, in giving age about the Irish Catholic and how they've, made a kind of manipulated the data from the survey to suit some sort of agenda with the the Catholic agenda in schools. The children wanted now as it goes on in the article, you should read the article. It's quite it's very, it takes Sasha a statistic and really runs with it. To the point of. Yeah. To, to beyond the point of seriousness. In my view, but anyway, I'm not interested in taking tests, slagging off the Irish Catholics. R-squared they're going to do what they're going to do. What I'm interested in is actually looking out. W what does this actually mean? I think some of the students, and if I, in fact, I'm absolutely sure. Many students do want more religion in schools. And if you were tasked me, if I believe there should be religion taught in schools. Despite my campaigning for a separation of church and state and irons, I would emphatically say yes. I believe. We should be teaching religion in schools. Now as many of, I don't subscribe to a particular religion, but I believe it's very important to learn about religions. And from them too. Because if you look at, if you look at the world, as it is. I don't subscribe to a particular religion, but I'm in the minority. I'm one of the 15% of the world that doesn't have a particular faith. About 85% of the world. Has a religion has a faith of some sort. And to me. I could sit there and go I'm right. And everyone else is wrong and everyone else is stupid and all the rest of it, I don't. I don't believe that I genuinely don't believe that. And I've often talked about how sometimes I feel a bit jealous of people that have. You have a faith. And I told the story of my mom when she was dying. Has she genuinely believed she would be, at least hopefully going to heaven in her view but genuinely believing that would be the case and that she would see us again. And I, as I've said before, I would dearly love to have that faith. Unfortunately I don't but it makes sense to me that I should understand why people believe, what they believe. And I should respect those wishes, even if I don't share their beliefs. And I, if you look at the size of major religious groups, it's. About 10 years old now at this stage. Christians are about 30 odd percent Muslims, about 23, 20 4% Hindus, about 15%, 7% Buddhists. And then you've got, other religions taking providers ones 2% and then folk religions, as they're known at about 6%. And then you've got about 15, 16% who are on affiliated to a particular faith. So more people believe in odd God. Or S or gods than don't. And I think it's important that and I know we're raising our child. W without origin, but we're also raising him to try and learn and understand why. About religions. Why people do what they do so that we can respect them for what they do. Being religious is not a bad thing. I think some people who are, who, not all people with religion, I think. But some people, the religion thing, those who don't have a religion are anti-religion. I have no M I have no ill feeling towards anyone who has a religion at all. My, my kind of line in the sand is you just don't try and convert me to your faith. I don't want that. I also feel that if you have a faith, you should keep that to your own family. It's a private matter. And this is why I campaign against it in the ma in schools, in our end, because that's where it does cross the line. So for example, I cannot teach in the vast majority of schools because. I cannot uphold. A religious ethos because it is not an ethos I share. It is not a faith that I share. I have no problem, obviously with conflict people being Catholic. But but when that is used in a way that excludes me from employment or excludes children as part of the school day, And so on. That's where there's a line. You can run schools without a religion permeating through it, or a particular faith at running through it at, there is no I, the argument dash, you need Catholic schools or. Church of Ireland schools or Jewish schools or Muslims goes is not, is, has no grounding whatsoever. We teach children. I had to be good people and we don't need religion. And to to change that, I think I've often said we have far more in common when it comes to multidimensional schools and religious NGOs have far more in common than they do differences and we focus entirely on the differences, but going back to why I think it's important to learn about religion. I want you to give an example that if I meet an Orthodox Jewish woman, I believe it's up to me to know and respect that she can't shake my hand, whether or not I think that's silly or not. It's not my business, whether she wants to shake my hundred nosh. I just have to respect that. That's what she believes. And it's no skin off my back if if I don't shake this person's hands. Just for those who don't know, I've made a link in the article it's called it's from a concept called Nikia. And it's it explains why. I don't have to agree with it. I just have to respect it. And similarly, I believe it's up to me to learn why many Muslim women choose to wear a hijab or another head covering rather than deciding myself that it's oppressive. As many people do. And again, I've linked to an article about the of Muslim women speaking about the reason they choose to wear or head covering. However, learning about religions. Is not what happens in the vast majority of Irish primary schools, religious education in most Irish primary schools is faith forming or confessional to use the term. In fact, in Ireland, the subject of religion and faith schools uses the terms, faith, formation, religion, religious education, and religious instruction interchangeably. If you if you're, if this is where I think the confusion comes from all these terms, even though they mean different things. Are used interchangeably in denominational schools. However, they are not the same. If you read that survey from the the OCO. The ombudsman. And you read the comments from the students. It's really clear. To me, at least again, it's my interpretation that students aren't interested in faith formation. When they say religion, it's learning about religions. I read one of the quotes, more education about different cultures and religions instead of only studying Christianity in schools. I think schools that are based on one, religion discriminate all the others. It's a very. Some people will find dash. A statement abrasive. And it is, but it's pretty factual, when you teach one. Faith, one worldview as. As fact to a group of people that don't share that faith, you are discriminating them on the basis of religion is one of the grounds of discrimination that you shouldn't be allowed to do any religion. The only one to get onto explaining. Maybe those terms and what they probably what they do mean. And religious education, as opposed to religion, religious education should be objective. Critical and pluralistic. So it needs to be all three of those things to be religious education and religious instruction. Is different. It's faith forming in one belief. In other words, only one perspective is presented as the truth. With other beliefs, if they're mentioned at all, as alternatives to the truth that you, tolerate, or maybe respect. But it certainly isn't what we do in our denominational school. And that can be very isolating to someone who is not of that faith of that school. If they spend eight years in primary school listening to messages of a dash Catholicism in most cases is the truth. And yeah, we're nice to the rest of you. We tolerate you wherever, and I don't mean that in a. I'm not trying to be mean or rude or anything like that. Tolerance in the nicest possible way. I think tolerance is another word that has been bought. Turn, it has been come a bad word, have some sort of tolerance is actually not a bad thing. It's good to tolerate people. But a tolerance is not seen as a good thing when it comes to religion, but that's what you're doing. It's not inclusion, let's say it's tolerance anyway. So if we look at the current Catholic primary program and it's eight years syllabus, so you look at the current coffee program, which is called, I think it's growing love. There are two weeks in total in the whole of the eight years, not two weeks, every year, two weeks in the full eight year program dedicated to learning about other fates I'm one week is on Judaism and the other one is on Islam and they're presented from a Christian point of view. And for the rest of the entire eight years Catholicism, or maybe more widely Christiana, she has such as a concept is taught to the children on critically. There is no room for anything critical or objective. Nevermind pluralistic in it. There is no uncertainty in the lessons offered to the children. So you might wonder why a country like Ireland, which has a very low percentage of practicing Catholics. I know there's quite a number of Catholics. But in name, but practicing Catholics is a far lower number. I would accept the 90% of primary schools teach their children messages that they themselves don't particularly believe. So you have, I think you would, the statistical moment is people are around parent to age. This is about 50 odd, 50, 53% apparent aged. Irish people. R a. Identify as Catholic and the census and the most recent census. Yet. Most of them have absolutely no problems. Sending their kids to a Catholic primary school where they receive faith formation. And I find that really difficult to understand and. I can only resolve. To me. That I think the blurring of what religion means when these schools talk about religion. Is where this is coming from. For example, if you look at any of the Catholic agencies in Ireland, they will always refer to religion. They never refer to. Religious instruction really? They were fair to the religious instruction, his skills, his religious education. They refuse to accept it as faith forming. And I've said this, your faith for me is that we're not faith forming. We're inviting the children to learn, and they become a ghast if I describe it as indoctrination. And by the way, just for those of you who find the word indoctrination, absolutely appalling as well in her ears, seeding an anger at me at the moment. Indoctrination just means the process of teaching a person or a group to accept a set of beliefs on critically. Which is exactly what happens when it comes to faith formation in Irish primary schools. It's just, it's not that you're forcing something down the throats of children, as people think indoctrination is, it's just teaching something without criticism, that's indoctrination. And if one looks at most Christian run primary schools in Ireland, which is basically which is basically most of the denominational schools bar three, one will see a sentence similar to this. It will be, it won't be exactly this, but something similar in our school. We believe in a Christian God, but we are happy to accept other faith. And none in our community and on the surface, that really seems very welcoming. Doesn't it? We're happy to accept everybody into our school. We don't mind what you believe. In fact, if you don't believe at all, you are very welcome in our school, but it doesn't take much to break down. What I can only describe as animal farm language here. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others is a way of doing it of saying it didn't schools call themselves inclusive. So they talk about, we are an inclusive Catholic school and some of them go further if they're a single sex school and say they're an inclusive Catholic girls school, despite excluding. Boys and yeah. But they in call themselves inclusive to all fates and none. And I've written about this and loads of lots of different ways, because I don't actually think they know what inclusion really means. And I'd recommend if you have a bit of time. Too. It's one of my biggest bugbears about what does inclusion actually mean in a Catholic school. And I don't think they actually, I suppose what they actually mean is tolerance. Because, at the end of the day, no Irish primary school, including the multidimensional skills can be fully inclusive for a number of reasons. And I'm not just talking about religion here. I'm talking about special education. I'm talking about lots of different issues, but any school that calls themselves inclusive, isn't working hard enough. Anyway, the blurring of the definitions of religious education and religious instruction has been wildly successful. In my view for denominational education, by doing this, it's, they've managed to retain an illusion that Irish primary schools are not. Contravening, any equality laws. It's successfully high. He's buying the fact that they see absolutely no difference between instruction and education. And this allows faith formation to continue. And about 95% of Irish primary schools supported by this kind of thin veil of proof that this is what parents. And now students, once you'll often hear about that's a parents want these. Religion religious schools. And there's no real proof of that big. And to be honest with it, there's apathy by the looks of things. But certainly not certainly not a want. Advocacy groups do try their best to try and help parents and students understand there is a difference between religious instruction and religious education. But it's a really difficult task and the parents aren't in the classroom, they don't S they don't know what goes on all the time in this, in the schools. I do I've holes in these skills and it's, if you were there, you would shirk a number of times. Maybe he wouldn't. This is the thing I think the whole cultural Catholicism that exists is a lot of things are seen as totally normal. Do you know what I mean? You look at. You look at the idea of most Irish people will, be appalled at, let's say arranged marriages, where you see little girls wearing wedding dresses in countries like India, Pakistan, where there's where this can happen. I, and yes, they don't see that. Communion dress is it's a mini wedding dress, these kinds of things. And I know that. That might sound trite. And maybe it's not a good example, but I think. We see things through certain eyes. And I think a lot of Irish people who have gone through the Catholic system themselves, I don't shirk at certain things. I don't know a picture of a man being nailed to a cross. And, children being asked to color a man, these kinds of things, or do you know the famous one that. That did seem to make people sure was that there was a lesson in senior infants or first costs were an angel comes through the window to a young Marriott and are served, to you. And, I don't do not be afraid. And it's like a stranger coming in my window kind of thing. But, you it's amazing how blinkered I would be. I would have been guilty of this in my own faith upbringing of things that just, I wouldn't, I would shark out now. But so I can see, I suppose I'm laboring the point here. It is a very difficult task. And when a society has been instructed in the same message for so many generations, it can be hard to get a different message through particular, most believe. Even if they don't like it. They feel it didn't do them any harm. Sure. What harm? I don't believe in it anymore. Anyway. Sure. Look, isn't the best. It's no harm anyway, to send the kid in there. They're not going to be diva either. However, I would argue that people might look beyond themselves and their own experiences go and maybe for maybe try and put themselves in the shoes of children teachers where the system of religious instruction. Does cause harm. And I think this is where this is probably the key here that I think a lot of Irish people, particularly Irish people, and maybe people who are in countries who come from countries where Catholic education is the norm, is that they see it as no harm because it did damn no harm, but they need to, in my view, you need to put yourself in the shoes of other people. So these are the children that have to sit at the back of classrooms every single day, while faith formation is going on while they're excluded from the rest of their task, their visitors in their own. And costume. These are the teachers that have to pretend to be practicing Christians, to be missionaries, to lead worship, to ensure they pass on that faith that you don't take very serious for yourself to the children, whether or not they believe in that message themselves. And if they can't do this, or if it's perceived that they can't do this, they're on able to get a job or they could be fired from their job where they could be disciplined for it. From the job where they could be looked over for promotion and so on. And there's many stories of those of these things happening and coming out. I don't want to give a shout out to education equality. A lobby group, who's percolating these stories and they're well worth a visit on Instagram. If you're on them and have a look at some of the stories that teachers and parents are sending in of the harm that is caused by religious instruction in schools. And if parents and students understood what religion actually meant in their child's primary school, isn't religious education, it is religious instruction. Perhaps it would make a difference. And as you can see from the Irish Catholics interpretation of the Children's ombudsman survey. They are masters. I presented information in a particular manner. And by leaving at psychology and drama and by failing to define religion. At best their headline is misleading. Perhaps to borrow their own phrase, it better, it might be better described. As sin. By omission. So there you have my first episode for 24, 25. I always like to talk about this topic and if you have any comments yourself and you're interested in contribution in any way to the discussion I am still on Twitter or axes. I. I do feel I want to leave it. I'm what I am trying to do is I'm setting, I've set up a newsletter which I'd love you to subscribe to on shaw.net/. Slash subscribe where I'm going to be, giving people, subscribers the opportunity to talk a little bit more. I also get bonus and material for anyone who's subscribed to the newsletter, which is I look for a newspaper articles that appear. And in the media. That I find really interesting and I get some comments on them, but it's also interesting to know for you to maybe have a look yourself. And I also give because I have a background in technology. I also give some technology tips which you can have a look at, and there are also on the YouTube channel. The podcast is no longer going to be on YouTube. I've decided after looking at the views. For all the effort of videoing myself and actually having to be dressed. What I do this in, in, in decent clothes, I am dressed when I'm doing this as a podcast, just for the record. It'd be probably wasn't Worth the effort. So you're going to have to go back to listening to the podcast. Anyway, that is it for me. Love to hear from you. As I said, please subscribe on onshore.net/subscribe or go to your favorite podcasts and talk format. And please leave a review. If you've enjoyed this episode because it helps other teachers and other people find, add the podcast more easy. That's it for me from this week. Thanks so much for this thing. All the very, very best bye-bye.